It does allow for a lot of ego. Which is silly, really, because it's all subjective and if we could set ego and pecking order aside, there's so much to be learned from each other
Well, I would start by editing this. “Authors always have weak point.” Missing the S. Around the 20th paragraph.
But most of what you have written here is valid, in terms of what an editor does, with regard to developmental editing or merely proofreading. Though I do think it’s naive to not use quotation marks. It is the industry standard and what readers expect. When I’m reading Cormac McCarthy and see his usual thing of not using punctuation, or even apostrophes, I just chuckle and think, “Well, that’s Cormac McCarthy just being his usual, self important self.” When other writers don’t use quotation marks, I have to reread the content and then discover that they’ve chosen to be trendy and not use quotation marks. Then I chuckle again.
Because it’s not what readers expect or even want. Should the reader have to stop reading to decipher the grammatical intent of the author? Because they refuse to use quotation marks to denote dialogue? I can’t imagine a quicker way to destroy “flow” in a story.
Sometimes the old ways are the best ways. Quotation marks are the standard and should always be used, unless you wish to draw attention to yourself, in a way that doesn’t really positivity impact your writing.
I am laughing. I always have one typo. Always. Never fails. Nice thing is that I can edit the web version. Not so nice is that 95% of readers read the email version, which I can't edit.
With regard to quotation marks, I would encourage you to read this piece. Love to hear your feedback on it. It's about quotation marks.
I recently had a chance to submit something for a journal, and it was great to have an editor again. A second set of eyes is always refreshing--and he tweaked a sentence here, and some punctuation there- but the best part was how he delivered his feedback. He didn't give me a map, he gave me a compass.
As for Boost: I never tell people I'm nominating their work, either. The last thing I want is someone trying to bend their style toward what they think I'm looking for. But if someone asked why a story made the cut (or didn't)? I'd definitely share my thoughts.
I love that phrase - he gave you a compass not a map. No one has ever asked me why they didn't make the cut. No. Wait. Not true. Walter has and we have some great conversations. But most people don't ask because they didn't know I nominated in the first place. lol.
Hmmm. Well, I honestly never thought to ask. Figured you were busy. 🤷♀️ But since you've mentioned it, I would like to know why I didn't make the cut. At least on the last story I used to apply to On Reflection. Really thought that one worked out well, but I must not be quite there yet. No worries, I'll keep trying. 😁
When a writer yanks a submission I sometimes feel like it's a relief. One less thing for me to worry about.
I'm happy to tell writers my thoughts on whether something is "Boost worthy" but I always preface it by saying that, ultimately, I don't make the decision on what is selected. The curators surprise me quite often. We're all learning. Great post!
The only time curators surprise me is when a piece is so darn good I'm dead sure it will get accepted and then it doesn't. Then I cuss a bunch in private and move on to the next. lol
That's all we can do! I always find it's easier to take rejection if I can come up with some kind of theory as to why the article wasn't taken. Then, I can test that theory in my next article. Still, it's a hit and miss process.
I have published one post with your pub On Reflection and it got a boost which is wonderful - I think I have mentioned from early on that you are one of the writers I look up to and truly value your suggestions so there is no question of me becoming defensive or hard feelings - one just has to know when to put ego aside and see this for what it is - a learning experience
Oh you touched on such a sensitive topic, Yana. Ego is hard for writers because they are so attached to their writing. I find it helpful to remember that my story and the words I tell it with aren't the same. That's probably another thing I could write about and thanks for the idea. :)
I worked in newsrooms for 30 years, so I have edited thousands of pieces by good and poor writers. I have also had thousands of my pieces edited by others, some better than others. I know how to edit, and I appreciate it when a good editor improves my copy -- whether it's fixing a typo or pointing out something that doesn't quite work. I especially appreciate it if a good editor on Medium tells me my piece would be more Boostable if I did A or B. That's gold!
If you're not in the Boost program, it's difficult to get a sense of this. Every nommer I've read says something about how they've learned over time to get a sense of what Medium is looking for. It's something that will take a while for a writer to learn, because we don't have the information a nommer has by working within the program.
The only thing I object to is the nommer trying to get me to pay them to tell me what might make me more Boostable.
Those 2 are my Achille's heel. Typos and bits that don't work for the reader because the missing piece is in my head. And you're so right, it will take writers longer to get that same sense because they aren't nominating dozen a month and seeing what gets accepted or declined.
“ I think that’s worth thinking about. Maybe even talking about.”
The entire piece gives great food for thought and learning opportunities. I plan on doing several reads.
Here’s a thought, off the top of my head and only half baked, sorry. I wish there was a way for Medium writers to pay a small amount for a small amount of feedback. Speaking for myself, the thought of hiring a “full service” editor at this point would be too costly even though I know it would really help my writing. Here’s what I would like; from time to time I would be able to activate a button to pay, I dunno, $25.00? $40.00? Other? for a page or half page of either general or some specific type of feedback…a one-off. I think I would do that, at least occasionally.
I am thinking specifically about various writing contests and along with their entry fee, the writer has the option to pay a small sum for a half or full page of general feedback. There is also the ability to ask and pay for a second or third round, but not a requirement. Tipping after receiving the paid for feedback is also permitted.
Just throwing this out there for a little rummaging through that kettle of fish. 😊
That's an interesting idea, Suz. It sent me down a funny thought train. Because I bet there would be a half dozen responses the editor would send over and over again. Because there's not much in common with good writing. Every really strong piece is pretty unique. But very often, the weak pieces have the same mistakes. They start too slow or the pace is slow. Or they are so highly personal the reader can't connect to them. You know? I should think on that and write about it. What a great idea and thank you.
I like the idea of being able to send a piece I’m working on but think I don’t have eyes in the back of my head that can feel how it lands for the reader without ever seeing how I got started writing the story.
I don’t think it would be bad to know what confused, or never landed the way I expected. I don’t think I need an editor to tell me they don’t really agree with the premise of a story. I need them to tell me when I sound like a little kid clomping around in Mama’s high heels.
I think it can happen when I’m fully in love with what I’m writing and it can make it impossible to be objective.
Having a third eye that tells me - you walked off the ledge here - is useful. I know readers click on by for many reasons, but I like to write something good enough that if it was left lying on your desk, you’d startle yourself because you ended up reading the whole thing.
Short take: I’d jump at the chance of a honest take from you about why one of my stories is not boost-able. I’d even co- write a story where you edit what I send you and then I write about what I learned.
I love that phrase Jocelyn. A kid clomping around in mama's high heels. And you're right about when it happens, too. When we love our words so much we can't be objective. Do you write for any of my publications? I could go look, but figure it's faster to ask. :)
All writers have their blind spots, their tics, their schtick — so true. That's only one of the reasons we need editors, but it's a big one. I always appreciate it when a Medium editor, who as you point out isn't being paid and is in no way obligated to do so, takes the time to edit or offer suggestions on one of my stories. There are a few occasions when I realize after submitting that either my story isn't ready or isn't right for that particular publications, so I've removed the draft. I've done that with one of your pubs, Linda, and I hope you didn't see that as my "yoinking" the story: just trying to respect your time.
Jan, you made me laugh. No, I don't see it as yoinking the story. lol. It's when I take a bunch of time to say see, in this paragraph you use 2 different tenses. And in this one, I'm not sure who's talking. And in that one... and then instead of replying to agree or disagree, they remove from publication and self publish. With no edits. That makes me wonder why I bothered spending time on it.
Oh heavens, we have all whined. Admitting that is another thing. lol. Same, I just want to grow as a writer. I think I have, but there is always more room to grow, too. Glad you're on the mend after surgery and it's great to see you back!
I love working with editors. That's all I knew for many years as I was only working for print magazines. Some editors are certainly far better than others. One I had an awful experience with and never sent him anything again. On Medium there are some editors that are just as professional and great to work with as in the magazine world. I'm really enjoying The Narrative Arc's professionalism. You're another editor I'd place in the "fantastic to work with" list, Linda! Good editors bring out our best writing. We need to appreciate them more.
Hey, I love you for that. It's such a pleasure to work with you, too, Kelly. And Linda! One of my partners from Medium sent me over to read Linda's article, and the comments are such a treasure trove. I just tonight set up my substack page and am struggling but think things will come together in time. Anyway, thank you, thank you (and Linda <3)
Thanks, Kelly. You are so right. A good editor brings out our best writing. I think when an editor is encouraging it makes us strive to give them our best, too! And thank you for including me in that group. When work doesn't get in the way, I sure do try to be as much help as I can. :)
If you ever want to give me feedback on my drafts, I'm completely open to that! It's hard to find editors willing to help writers improve, because for every writer like me that would take it into consideration (sometimes I disagree with the opinion, but still appreciate the perspective), there are fifty that get upset. They don't want to write different. Or better. They're fine the way they are.
And I get that. I was like that too not so long ago.
But man, if there were a free place to get that feedback? To help hone me into a stronger writer, so I can improve my overall writing skills? Literally priceless.
As you said, editors have lives. They usually have jobs. And, they'd like to write sometimes, too. If only there were a better way to match up editors with writers based on willingness to give and receive feedback. 🤷♀️
You know, the crazy thing is there must be. I mean, so many publications now have Slack groups for writers. Makes me wonder if there are groups where editors interact in that way, but we just don't know about them. The irony is that I love doing stuff like that, but it doesn't pay the bills and we all have bills to pay. It's something to think about, though.
The best I've found so far is joining a writing group. And that's a great start, but it's not full of nominators. I often worry it's the blind leading the blind there. lol
lol, it very well could be, but then most writing advice probably is. I think the best scenario would be to have that kind of rapport with someone who runs a publication you write for and is also a nominator. And that's a delicate situation at best. You know? I write for a LOT of publications, but I can count on one hand the number of people who would tell me if they thought I wrote something that was not boost quality. Most would just not submit and not tell me. It requires a lot of trust both ways, knowing the other party won't take it personally or be hurt or offended.
I set up a Discord channel for The Riff, but that was more because the Private Note function is unreliable, and I wanted a way for people to be able to get in touch.
I'm glad you liked that phrase, Sam. It's so true, isn't it?
It does allow for a lot of ego. Which is silly, really, because it's all subjective and if we could set ego and pecking order aside, there's so much to be learned from each other
Well, I would start by editing this. “Authors always have weak point.” Missing the S. Around the 20th paragraph.
But most of what you have written here is valid, in terms of what an editor does, with regard to developmental editing or merely proofreading. Though I do think it’s naive to not use quotation marks. It is the industry standard and what readers expect. When I’m reading Cormac McCarthy and see his usual thing of not using punctuation, or even apostrophes, I just chuckle and think, “Well, that’s Cormac McCarthy just being his usual, self important self.” When other writers don’t use quotation marks, I have to reread the content and then discover that they’ve chosen to be trendy and not use quotation marks. Then I chuckle again.
Because it’s not what readers expect or even want. Should the reader have to stop reading to decipher the grammatical intent of the author? Because they refuse to use quotation marks to denote dialogue? I can’t imagine a quicker way to destroy “flow” in a story.
Sometimes the old ways are the best ways. Quotation marks are the standard and should always be used, unless you wish to draw attention to yourself, in a way that doesn’t really positivity impact your writing.
To each his own, I guess.
I am laughing. I always have one typo. Always. Never fails. Nice thing is that I can edit the web version. Not so nice is that 95% of readers read the email version, which I can't edit.
With regard to quotation marks, I would encourage you to read this piece. Love to hear your feedback on it. It's about quotation marks.
https://medium.com/the-book-cafe/stunning-writing-and-a-little-boy-named-bird-4891373568db
Thanks, I’ll read it. 😊
I recently had a chance to submit something for a journal, and it was great to have an editor again. A second set of eyes is always refreshing--and he tweaked a sentence here, and some punctuation there- but the best part was how he delivered his feedback. He didn't give me a map, he gave me a compass.
As for Boost: I never tell people I'm nominating their work, either. The last thing I want is someone trying to bend their style toward what they think I'm looking for. But if someone asked why a story made the cut (or didn't)? I'd definitely share my thoughts.
I love that phrase - he gave you a compass not a map. No one has ever asked me why they didn't make the cut. No. Wait. Not true. Walter has and we have some great conversations. But most people don't ask because they didn't know I nominated in the first place. lol.
Hmmm. Well, I honestly never thought to ask. Figured you were busy. 🤷♀️ But since you've mentioned it, I would like to know why I didn't make the cut. At least on the last story I used to apply to On Reflection. Really thought that one worked out well, but I must not be quite there yet. No worries, I'll keep trying. 😁
When a writer yanks a submission I sometimes feel like it's a relief. One less thing for me to worry about.
I'm happy to tell writers my thoughts on whether something is "Boost worthy" but I always preface it by saying that, ultimately, I don't make the decision on what is selected. The curators surprise me quite often. We're all learning. Great post!
The only time curators surprise me is when a piece is so darn good I'm dead sure it will get accepted and then it doesn't. Then I cuss a bunch in private and move on to the next. lol
That's all we can do! I always find it's easier to take rejection if I can come up with some kind of theory as to why the article wasn't taken. Then, I can test that theory in my next article. Still, it's a hit and miss process.
Boy, is this relatable! Anytime I'm *sure* something is a "cover story," it gets shot down.
I have published one post with your pub On Reflection and it got a boost which is wonderful - I think I have mentioned from early on that you are one of the writers I look up to and truly value your suggestions so there is no question of me becoming defensive or hard feelings - one just has to know when to put ego aside and see this for what it is - a learning experience
Oh you touched on such a sensitive topic, Yana. Ego is hard for writers because they are so attached to their writing. I find it helpful to remember that my story and the words I tell it with aren't the same. That's probably another thing I could write about and thanks for the idea. :)
I worked in newsrooms for 30 years, so I have edited thousands of pieces by good and poor writers. I have also had thousands of my pieces edited by others, some better than others. I know how to edit, and I appreciate it when a good editor improves my copy -- whether it's fixing a typo or pointing out something that doesn't quite work. I especially appreciate it if a good editor on Medium tells me my piece would be more Boostable if I did A or B. That's gold!
If you're not in the Boost program, it's difficult to get a sense of this. Every nommer I've read says something about how they've learned over time to get a sense of what Medium is looking for. It's something that will take a while for a writer to learn, because we don't have the information a nommer has by working within the program.
The only thing I object to is the nommer trying to get me to pay them to tell me what might make me more Boostable.
Those 2 are my Achille's heel. Typos and bits that don't work for the reader because the missing piece is in my head. And you're so right, it will take writers longer to get that same sense because they aren't nominating dozen a month and seeing what gets accepted or declined.
You're a great editor and friend! thanks for helping me on my last essay.
“ I think that’s worth thinking about. Maybe even talking about.”
The entire piece gives great food for thought and learning opportunities. I plan on doing several reads.
Here’s a thought, off the top of my head and only half baked, sorry. I wish there was a way for Medium writers to pay a small amount for a small amount of feedback. Speaking for myself, the thought of hiring a “full service” editor at this point would be too costly even though I know it would really help my writing. Here’s what I would like; from time to time I would be able to activate a button to pay, I dunno, $25.00? $40.00? Other? for a page or half page of either general or some specific type of feedback…a one-off. I think I would do that, at least occasionally.
I am thinking specifically about various writing contests and along with their entry fee, the writer has the option to pay a small sum for a half or full page of general feedback. There is also the ability to ask and pay for a second or third round, but not a requirement. Tipping after receiving the paid for feedback is also permitted.
Just throwing this out there for a little rummaging through that kettle of fish. 😊
That's an interesting idea, Suz. It sent me down a funny thought train. Because I bet there would be a half dozen responses the editor would send over and over again. Because there's not much in common with good writing. Every really strong piece is pretty unique. But very often, the weak pieces have the same mistakes. They start too slow or the pace is slow. Or they are so highly personal the reader can't connect to them. You know? I should think on that and write about it. What a great idea and thank you.
Hey Linda. Your reply prompted me to think of something else. I am just on the fly but will send you an email in next few days.
I like the idea of being able to send a piece I’m working on but think I don’t have eyes in the back of my head that can feel how it lands for the reader without ever seeing how I got started writing the story.
I don’t think it would be bad to know what confused, or never landed the way I expected. I don’t think I need an editor to tell me they don’t really agree with the premise of a story. I need them to tell me when I sound like a little kid clomping around in Mama’s high heels.
I think it can happen when I’m fully in love with what I’m writing and it can make it impossible to be objective.
Having a third eye that tells me - you walked off the ledge here - is useful. I know readers click on by for many reasons, but I like to write something good enough that if it was left lying on your desk, you’d startle yourself because you ended up reading the whole thing.
Short take: I’d jump at the chance of a honest take from you about why one of my stories is not boost-able. I’d even co- write a story where you edit what I send you and then I write about what I learned.
I love that phrase Jocelyn. A kid clomping around in mama's high heels. And you're right about when it happens, too. When we love our words so much we can't be objective. Do you write for any of my publications? I could go look, but figure it's faster to ask. :)
Not yet! I would like to though. I haven’t applied to some of the larger more well known publications yet.
Which publication of yours do you recommend I to send something to?
All writers have their blind spots, their tics, their schtick — so true. That's only one of the reasons we need editors, but it's a big one. I always appreciate it when a Medium editor, who as you point out isn't being paid and is in no way obligated to do so, takes the time to edit or offer suggestions on one of my stories. There are a few occasions when I realize after submitting that either my story isn't ready or isn't right for that particular publications, so I've removed the draft. I've done that with one of your pubs, Linda, and I hope you didn't see that as my "yoinking" the story: just trying to respect your time.
Jan, you made me laugh. No, I don't see it as yoinking the story. lol. It's when I take a bunch of time to say see, in this paragraph you use 2 different tenses. And in this one, I'm not sure who's talking. And in that one... and then instead of replying to agree or disagree, they remove from publication and self publish. With no edits. That makes me wonder why I bothered spending time on it.
I've been in critique groups like that . . . ;-)
I listen to editors, tho sometimes I'll mutter under my breath. Then bitch-slap my ego.
lmao Jen. That made me laugh
You are so right, sis! I've been guilty of whining, myself. But now I ask--how can I make it better? I wanna know! Thanks!
Oh heavens, we have all whined. Admitting that is another thing. lol. Same, I just want to grow as a writer. I think I have, but there is always more room to grow, too. Glad you're on the mend after surgery and it's great to see you back!
Thank you! It's good to be back! xoxoxo
I love working with editors. That's all I knew for many years as I was only working for print magazines. Some editors are certainly far better than others. One I had an awful experience with and never sent him anything again. On Medium there are some editors that are just as professional and great to work with as in the magazine world. I'm really enjoying The Narrative Arc's professionalism. You're another editor I'd place in the "fantastic to work with" list, Linda! Good editors bring out our best writing. We need to appreciate them more.
Hey, I love you for that. It's such a pleasure to work with you, too, Kelly. And Linda! One of my partners from Medium sent me over to read Linda's article, and the comments are such a treasure trove. I just tonight set up my substack page and am struggling but think things will come together in time. Anyway, thank you, thank you (and Linda <3)
Right Deb? The comments here are really great. I love the interactions on Substack!
Thanks, Kelly. You are so right. A good editor brings out our best writing. I think when an editor is encouraging it makes us strive to give them our best, too! And thank you for including me in that group. When work doesn't get in the way, I sure do try to be as much help as I can. :)
Editing can really be a thankless job sometimes.
lol Samantha. That was so succinct it made me laugh. It really can be sometimes. Good to see you and hope you're well.
This was a really interesting read, thankyou for sharing your experience.
If you ever want to give me feedback on my drafts, I'm completely open to that! It's hard to find editors willing to help writers improve, because for every writer like me that would take it into consideration (sometimes I disagree with the opinion, but still appreciate the perspective), there are fifty that get upset. They don't want to write different. Or better. They're fine the way they are.
And I get that. I was like that too not so long ago.
But man, if there were a free place to get that feedback? To help hone me into a stronger writer, so I can improve my overall writing skills? Literally priceless.
As you said, editors have lives. They usually have jobs. And, they'd like to write sometimes, too. If only there were a better way to match up editors with writers based on willingness to give and receive feedback. 🤷♀️
You know, the crazy thing is there must be. I mean, so many publications now have Slack groups for writers. Makes me wonder if there are groups where editors interact in that way, but we just don't know about them. The irony is that I love doing stuff like that, but it doesn't pay the bills and we all have bills to pay. It's something to think about, though.
The best I've found so far is joining a writing group. And that's a great start, but it's not full of nominators. I often worry it's the blind leading the blind there. lol
lol, it very well could be, but then most writing advice probably is. I think the best scenario would be to have that kind of rapport with someone who runs a publication you write for and is also a nominator. And that's a delicate situation at best. You know? I write for a LOT of publications, but I can count on one hand the number of people who would tell me if they thought I wrote something that was not boost quality. Most would just not submit and not tell me. It requires a lot of trust both ways, knowing the other party won't take it personally or be hurt or offended.
I set up a Discord channel for The Riff, but that was more because the Private Note function is unreliable, and I wanted a way for people to be able to get in touch.