One thing we need to be clear of is to distinguish the genuine advocates of Hitlerian hate from those who are just labeled "Nazis" as a pejorative by others for spite. Because too many people get away with that and don't get punished for enacting slander (if the "Nazis" are nothing like that).
I object to Nazi beliefs, but I also object to other people on the platform starting a civil war among us for no good reason...
The best way to get rid of them all would have been at the start of all of these platforms, if the founders had clearly stated: "No Nazis need apply." But it's too late for that.
I was just thinking of leaving Medium and moving to Substack, but this is kind of a deal breaker for me. Are the powers-that-be at Substack even thinking about beefing up their hate policy?
Thanks for this, Linda. I co-signed that letter and helped with an addition but I don’t think most or even many of us are planning to leave. It’s an option but overall I’m happy here.
The letter was meant to be a wake-up call and I hope it is. It’s a stain on an otherwise fine website.
I hope so too, Ramona. I think if ONE company took a really hard stance, it could almost force others to do the same or lose people. Of course, I don't sit on their board of directors and have no idea how much profit it would cost them to take that stance.
I'm grateful you addressed this. It makes me sad beyond belief. Where Does one go? I was getting ready to set up a substack and dig in, and now I feel tainted. Quoting Holly "The issue here is that substack allows them to monetize." It feels like blood money. Thank you Linda and Holly for your points.
I'm not going anywhere; I like this bar, and have zero interest in seeing it taken over. Besides, as you've correctly noted, there's no real alternatives.
I subscribe to as many Substack writers as I can afford, in both money and time to read. Yes, I'm surprised that there are Nazi writers here, but the fact that they are hiding in the dark bothers me much less than the masses of young people at universities that used to be edifices of higher learning screaming that Hamas had the right to exterminate more Jews proportionately than the US lost in 9/11. The screaming is bad enough, but Jewish students are being threatened and assaulted. The horrors of the Holocaust led to a war that my ancestors participated in to ensure it would never happen again. Yet it has, right here on our home turf. I look at the hate speech spewers on Substack in much the same way as cockroaches and ants in the house. You don't want them there, but no matter how hard you try, they come creeping back, always hiding in the cracks and crevices. I don't view them nearly as dangerous as a howling pack of young wolves in broad daylight, screaming "From the river to the sea..." I'm not Jewish, but on October 7 I became a Jew in spirit, if only to affirm my humanity. I have a friend in Israel who has children and grandchildren in Canada. She worries about them constantly and wishes they were back in Israel, where she feels they would be safer.
This reminds me of a scene in 12 Angry Men. One of the jury members is prejudice against the boy on trial. As he speaks, each of the other members walk away and turn their backs on him. When the man notices that no one is listening, he grows quiet. It’s sad how easily hatred can poison a platform. What fuels it is the attention it gets.
I can understand why many writers want to leave but at the same time, as you said, hatred is everywhere. All we can really do is try to get rid of it in whatever platform it’s present. Maybe leaving it will draw attention. But sometimes fighting hatred means having to stay on the platform, sadly. It’s a tricky situation.
Agreed. I've had the same thoughts myself. If you find answers, I hope you write about it. We'd all love to have more options than to shrug and try not to think about it.
I’m glad you wrote about this because I was wondering your thoughts on the subject. I am particularly bothered by the idea that the pro-Nazi posts are boasting best-seller badges and therefore are being promoted . It seems highly unlikely that the powers that be at Substack are not aware of those making them lots of money. How do they justify their awareness but “let’s look the other way since we’re making money from this,” action?
I too am frustrated and saddened by the huge divides and acceptance of hate-fueled speech and actions. I agree it doesn’t make sense to leave the platforms to the haters but also don’t like to support their supporters.
Substack might have some cool reasons for existing (and I'm not being facetious, just real) but they're motivated by profit and a long life so are inclined to accept all-comers when they start. If these guys are organized, have paid subscribers and are driving much needed cash to Substack's bottom line - the guys at The Top may have some handwringing ahead of them as they decide what they want to do with the alt-right members.
I'd like to go back in time and stifle with an old sock the person who said - Money talks, Nobody walks - except it was so damn prophetic. It drives this platform and every other one so finding a place that doesn't have people who hate is a very tall order. Best to do our best to put guardrails wherever we can on something that works rather than looking for an Angel who is willing to donate $200,000,000 to start an Ideal platform. Let's improve it while we can
I sent that letter (or one much like it) too. But you're right: there are no pure, hate-free spaces on the Internet, and certainly no social media that doesn't carry the stain to some degree. What bothers me most about Substack's admittedly small proportion of hate sites is that Substack profits from a number of them. That is just wrong. But I'm not leaving. At least, not yet.
While this is shocking, it unfortunately doesn't surprise me. They had paid pro packages (i.e. a fortune) to famously transphobic writers to keep blogging here. So this latest news is completely expected, sad to say. But Substack also has a low bar to entry, and many find the Substack notes very helpful to connect with their followers and potential new readers. LOL I post regularly on Twitter X (now with a blue checkmark so I can write longform), and even buy a lot from Amazon. I don't have any room to judge. 😂
Here's how to solve the problem as I see it. We can and should counteract such groups by giving the opposing view. Jesus didn't go around trying to ban certain religious groups he presented his perspective. When you try to squash people's voices, they become martyrs and get more followers. How you get rid of darkness is by presenting the light.
If goodness and hope shrink into the background and leave a hole, evil will certainly fill it. We make a difference through our presence and unfailing commitment to equality, justice, and our shared respect for one another and the world in which we live.
Our memberships, our fees, our presence on these platforms, all three are our votes. But like you say, Linda, we use that vote to exit and where do we go? The sad,sad truth is that hate sells. What a statement about a large chunk of humanity. Yet because the vast majority of corporations care ONLY about profit, the machine spews forward.
Maybe we just keep on migrating from site to site, knowing the hate will be there too. But at least the one in the current line of fire suffers and maybe a message sinks in and actions are taken to clean out the hate and conspiracy theories ? ( Ha, Pollyanna here again!) I’m recalling Neil Young and those he influenced to leave Spotify as an effort to cause Spotify to fire Joe Rogan...that certainly didn’t work. Yep, because: money.
I agree with you, Holly. America and the spread of fascism is indeed appalling. I keep thinking ‘This can’t be happening’ but OMG it is!
One thing we need to be clear of is to distinguish the genuine advocates of Hitlerian hate from those who are just labeled "Nazis" as a pejorative by others for spite. Because too many people get away with that and don't get punished for enacting slander (if the "Nazis" are nothing like that).
I object to Nazi beliefs, but I also object to other people on the platform starting a civil war among us for no good reason...
The best way to get rid of them all would have been at the start of all of these platforms, if the founders had clearly stated: "No Nazis need apply." But it's too late for that.
Yes, that would have been the best thing. Instead, they nurtured and promoted them.
That’s the reason for the letter.
Its never too late to start doing the right thing.
I was just thinking of leaving Medium and moving to Substack, but this is kind of a deal breaker for me. Are the powers-that-be at Substack even thinking about beefing up their hate policy?
Linda says they are.
Thanks for this, Linda. I co-signed that letter and helped with an addition but I don’t think most or even many of us are planning to leave. It’s an option but overall I’m happy here.
The letter was meant to be a wake-up call and I hope it is. It’s a stain on an otherwise fine website.
I hope so too, Ramona. I think if ONE company took a really hard stance, it could almost force others to do the same or lose people. Of course, I don't sit on their board of directors and have no idea how much profit it would cost them to take that stance.
I'm grateful you addressed this. It makes me sad beyond belief. Where Does one go? I was getting ready to set up a substack and dig in, and now I feel tainted. Quoting Holly "The issue here is that substack allows them to monetize." It feels like blood money. Thank you Linda and Holly for your points.
The only way a company will take a stand is if they're FORCED to; either by shaming or via a BOYCOTT.
They will never change their business model as long as its making them tons of money.
Find the money, hit the money.
Just like the Hong Kong Yellow/Blue protest campaign and Clooney's efforts here: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/flashback-george-clooney-s-boycott-call-against-luxury-hotels-linked-to-brunei-s-controversial-laws/ar-AA1h8OOf
I'm not going anywhere; I like this bar, and have zero interest in seeing it taken over. Besides, as you've correctly noted, there's no real alternatives.
I subscribe to as many Substack writers as I can afford, in both money and time to read. Yes, I'm surprised that there are Nazi writers here, but the fact that they are hiding in the dark bothers me much less than the masses of young people at universities that used to be edifices of higher learning screaming that Hamas had the right to exterminate more Jews proportionately than the US lost in 9/11. The screaming is bad enough, but Jewish students are being threatened and assaulted. The horrors of the Holocaust led to a war that my ancestors participated in to ensure it would never happen again. Yet it has, right here on our home turf. I look at the hate speech spewers on Substack in much the same way as cockroaches and ants in the house. You don't want them there, but no matter how hard you try, they come creeping back, always hiding in the cracks and crevices. I don't view them nearly as dangerous as a howling pack of young wolves in broad daylight, screaming "From the river to the sea..." I'm not Jewish, but on October 7 I became a Jew in spirit, if only to affirm my humanity. I have a friend in Israel who has children and grandchildren in Canada. She worries about them constantly and wishes they were back in Israel, where she feels they would be safer.
This reminds me of a scene in 12 Angry Men. One of the jury members is prejudice against the boy on trial. As he speaks, each of the other members walk away and turn their backs on him. When the man notices that no one is listening, he grows quiet. It’s sad how easily hatred can poison a platform. What fuels it is the attention it gets.
I can understand why many writers want to leave but at the same time, as you said, hatred is everywhere. All we can really do is try to get rid of it in whatever platform it’s present. Maybe leaving it will draw attention. But sometimes fighting hatred means having to stay on the platform, sadly. It’s a tricky situation.
Great thoughts, Wise and brave
Agreed. I've had the same thoughts myself. If you find answers, I hope you write about it. We'd all love to have more options than to shrug and try not to think about it.
I’m glad you wrote about this because I was wondering your thoughts on the subject. I am particularly bothered by the idea that the pro-Nazi posts are boasting best-seller badges and therefore are being promoted . It seems highly unlikely that the powers that be at Substack are not aware of those making them lots of money. How do they justify their awareness but “let’s look the other way since we’re making money from this,” action?
I too am frustrated and saddened by the huge divides and acceptance of hate-fueled speech and actions. I agree it doesn’t make sense to leave the platforms to the haters but also don’t like to support their supporters.
Substack might have some cool reasons for existing (and I'm not being facetious, just real) but they're motivated by profit and a long life so are inclined to accept all-comers when they start. If these guys are organized, have paid subscribers and are driving much needed cash to Substack's bottom line - the guys at The Top may have some handwringing ahead of them as they decide what they want to do with the alt-right members.
I'd like to go back in time and stifle with an old sock the person who said - Money talks, Nobody walks - except it was so damn prophetic. It drives this platform and every other one so finding a place that doesn't have people who hate is a very tall order. Best to do our best to put guardrails wherever we can on something that works rather than looking for an Angel who is willing to donate $200,000,000 to start an Ideal platform. Let's improve it while we can
I sent that letter (or one much like it) too. But you're right: there are no pure, hate-free spaces on the Internet, and certainly no social media that doesn't carry the stain to some degree. What bothers me most about Substack's admittedly small proportion of hate sites is that Substack profits from a number of them. That is just wrong. But I'm not leaving. At least, not yet.
While this is shocking, it unfortunately doesn't surprise me. They had paid pro packages (i.e. a fortune) to famously transphobic writers to keep blogging here. So this latest news is completely expected, sad to say. But Substack also has a low bar to entry, and many find the Substack notes very helpful to connect with their followers and potential new readers. LOL I post regularly on Twitter X (now with a blue checkmark so I can write longform), and even buy a lot from Amazon. I don't have any room to judge. 😂
Here's how to solve the problem as I see it. We can and should counteract such groups by giving the opposing view. Jesus didn't go around trying to ban certain religious groups he presented his perspective. When you try to squash people's voices, they become martyrs and get more followers. How you get rid of darkness is by presenting the light.
If goodness and hope shrink into the background and leave a hole, evil will certainly fill it. We make a difference through our presence and unfailing commitment to equality, justice, and our shared respect for one another and the world in which we live.
Our memberships, our fees, our presence on these platforms, all three are our votes. But like you say, Linda, we use that vote to exit and where do we go? The sad,sad truth is that hate sells. What a statement about a large chunk of humanity. Yet because the vast majority of corporations care ONLY about profit, the machine spews forward.
Maybe we just keep on migrating from site to site, knowing the hate will be there too. But at least the one in the current line of fire suffers and maybe a message sinks in and actions are taken to clean out the hate and conspiracy theories ? ( Ha, Pollyanna here again!) I’m recalling Neil Young and those he influenced to leave Spotify as an effort to cause Spotify to fire Joe Rogan...that certainly didn’t work. Yep, because: money.