Thanks for this, Linda. I co-signed that letter and helped with an addition but I don’t think most or even many of us are planning to leave. It’s an option but overall I’m happy here.
The letter was meant to be a wake-up call and I hope it is. It’s a stain on an otherwise fine website.
I hope so too, Ramona. I think if ONE company took a really hard stance, it could almost force others to do the same or lose people. Of course, I don't sit on their board of directors and have no idea how much profit it would cost them to take that stance.
I'm grateful you addressed this. It makes me sad beyond belief. Where Does one go? I was getting ready to set up a substack and dig in, and now I feel tainted. Quoting Holly "The issue here is that substack allows them to monetize." It feels like blood money. Thank you Linda and Holly for your points.
One thing we need to be clear of is to distinguish the genuine advocates of Hitlerian hate from those who are just labeled "Nazis" as a pejorative by others for spite. Because too many people get away with that and don't get punished for enacting slander (if the "Nazis" are nothing like that).
I object to Nazi beliefs, but I also object to other people on the platform starting a civil war among us for no good reason...
The best way to get rid of them all would have been at the start of all of these platforms, if the founders had clearly stated: "No Nazis need apply." But it's too late for that.
This reminds me of a scene in 12 Angry Men. One of the jury members is prejudice against the boy on trial. As he speaks, each of the other members walk away and turn their backs on him. When the man notices that no one is listening, he grows quiet. It’s sad how easily hatred can poison a platform. What fuels it is the attention it gets.
I can understand why many writers want to leave but at the same time, as you said, hatred is everywhere. All we can really do is try to get rid of it in whatever platform it’s present. Maybe leaving it will draw attention. But sometimes fighting hatred means having to stay on the platform, sadly. It’s a tricky situation.
I'm not going anywhere; I like this bar, and have zero interest in seeing it taken over. Besides, as you've correctly noted, there's no real alternatives.
While this is shocking, it unfortunately doesn't surprise me. They had paid pro packages (i.e. a fortune) to famously transphobic writers to keep blogging here. So this latest news is completely expected, sad to say. But Substack also has a low bar to entry, and many find the Substack notes very helpful to connect with their followers and potential new readers. LOL I post regularly on Twitter X (now with a blue checkmark so I can write longform), and even buy a lot from Amazon. I don't have any room to judge. 😂
Substack might have some cool reasons for existing (and I'm not being facetious, just real) but they're motivated by profit and a long life so are inclined to accept all-comers when they start. If these guys are organized, have paid subscribers and are driving much needed cash to Substack's bottom line - the guys at The Top may have some handwringing ahead of them as they decide what they want to do with the alt-right members.
I'd like to go back in time and stifle with an old sock the person who said - Money talks, Nobody walks - except it was so damn prophetic. It drives this platform and every other one so finding a place that doesn't have people who hate is a very tall order. Best to do our best to put guardrails wherever we can on something that works rather than looking for an Angel who is willing to donate $200,000,000 to start an Ideal platform. Let's improve it while we can
I don’t intend to leave and give the bastards what they want. Too, we may very well have a Nazi in the White House-- once again-- so should those of us who oppose him flee our homeland? I don’t have the resources for that, just as I don’t have a place to go to from here. I’m weary of jumping from platform to platform. I’m finding they all suck in one way or another. Oh, my father was a Jew. He would have told me to stand my ground. But, the fact that there has been no response from Substack is unconscionable.
No one much cares if I leave Substack -- I'm not even charging anyone for anything -- but I just brought over a friend who was looking for somewhere new after TinyLetter closes down. I'd heard about Substack's Nazi problem but was hoping it would get taken care of. Instead we get this...mere days after I got my friend to set up shop here! So the question of where to go if Substack becomes untenable isn't academic. Sending out newsletters isn't the problem -- I can do that, the tech side is easy -- but being discovered by new people, growing the audience, that's the hard part. And I don't know where anyone can do that.
Agreed. I've had the same thoughts myself. If you find answers, I hope you write about it. We'd all love to have more options than to shrug and try not to think about it.
I subscribe to as many Substack writers as I can afford, in both money and time to read. Yes, I'm surprised that there are Nazi writers here, but the fact that they are hiding in the dark bothers me much less than the masses of young people at universities that used to be edifices of higher learning screaming that Hamas had the right to exterminate more Jews proportionately than the US lost in 9/11. The screaming is bad enough, but Jewish students are being threatened and assaulted. The horrors of the Holocaust led to a war that my ancestors participated in to ensure it would never happen again. Yet it has, right here on our home turf. I look at the hate speech spewers on Substack in much the same way as cockroaches and ants in the house. You don't want them there, but no matter how hard you try, they come creeping back, always hiding in the cracks and crevices. I don't view them nearly as dangerous as a howling pack of young wolves in broad daylight, screaming "From the river to the sea..." I'm not Jewish, but on October 7 I became a Jew in spirit, if only to affirm my humanity. I have a friend in Israel who has children and grandchildren in Canada. She worries about them constantly and wishes they were back in Israel, where she feels they would be safer.
I was just thinking of leaving Medium and moving to Substack, but this is kind of a deal breaker for me. Are the powers-that-be at Substack even thinking about beefing up their hate policy?
I am one of the signatories to the letter. I am strongly considering leaving. I can post my content on my own website, on Squarespace. Squarespace, like WordPress, is a tool. You buy it, you use it. Could hate groups use it? Sure. But it's a website building tool, not a moderated platfrom. Substack claims that they don't allow speech or fundraising that promotes violence against protected classes. But they have not even dignified the 200+ Substackers who signed onto the letter with a response to their question of how this aligns with their policy. None. What kind of care does that show this community? I fear that the reason they don't moderate more is simple. Money. See Dave Karpf's thoughts on it here: https://davekarpf.substack.com/p/on-substack-nazis-laissez-faire-tech
AND AS LONG AS TURKIYE, INDIA, HUNGARY, ARGENTINA ETC. ARE RULED BY FAR-RIGHT DICTATORS, AND TRUMP IS NOT IN JAIL, THIS IS CERTAINLY NO TIME TO RELAX...
FINAL WORDS
Rupert Murdoch and his media empire have done the most damage by not only allowing but also accelerating the rise of Nazism across the globe.
Zuckerberg's Facebook and Musk's X and most social media have been willing handmaidens as well.
To crush them all, the best plan is to FOLLOW THE MONEY.
Find the money and then HIT THE MONEY.
They won't like that.
AND THE ABSOLUTE LAST WORDS GO TO KARL POPPER, THE TWENTIETH CENTURY AUSTRIAN-BRITISH PHILOSOPHER...
"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
You should consider the fact that we live in a capitalistic society.So companies act according to what is profitable and not what is ''morally'' correct.If Substack feels it earns more money if nazi groups remain,they will simply keep them.
I do not want to sound cynical but that is the American society.
Our memberships, our fees, our presence on these platforms, all three are our votes. But like you say, Linda, we use that vote to exit and where do we go? The sad,sad truth is that hate sells. What a statement about a large chunk of humanity. Yet because the vast majority of corporations care ONLY about profit, the machine spews forward.
Maybe we just keep on migrating from site to site, knowing the hate will be there too. But at least the one in the current line of fire suffers and maybe a message sinks in and actions are taken to clean out the hate and conspiracy theories ? ( Ha, Pollyanna here again!) I’m recalling Neil Young and those he influenced to leave Spotify as an effort to cause Spotify to fire Joe Rogan...that certainly didn’t work. Yep, because: money.
If goodness and hope shrink into the background and leave a hole, evil will certainly fill it. We make a difference through our presence and unfailing commitment to equality, justice, and our shared respect for one another and the world in which we live.
Thanks for this, Linda. I co-signed that letter and helped with an addition but I don’t think most or even many of us are planning to leave. It’s an option but overall I’m happy here.
The letter was meant to be a wake-up call and I hope it is. It’s a stain on an otherwise fine website.
I hope so too, Ramona. I think if ONE company took a really hard stance, it could almost force others to do the same or lose people. Of course, I don't sit on their board of directors and have no idea how much profit it would cost them to take that stance.
The only way a company will take a stand is if they're FORCED to; either by shaming or via a BOYCOTT.
They will never change their business model as long as its making them tons of money.
Find the money, hit the money.
Just like the Hong Kong Yellow/Blue protest campaign and Clooney's efforts here: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/flashback-george-clooney-s-boycott-call-against-luxury-hotels-linked-to-brunei-s-controversial-laws/ar-AA1h8OOf
I'm grateful you addressed this. It makes me sad beyond belief. Where Does one go? I was getting ready to set up a substack and dig in, and now I feel tainted. Quoting Holly "The issue here is that substack allows them to monetize." It feels like blood money. Thank you Linda and Holly for your points.
One thing we need to be clear of is to distinguish the genuine advocates of Hitlerian hate from those who are just labeled "Nazis" as a pejorative by others for spite. Because too many people get away with that and don't get punished for enacting slander (if the "Nazis" are nothing like that).
I object to Nazi beliefs, but I also object to other people on the platform starting a civil war among us for no good reason...
The best way to get rid of them all would have been at the start of all of these platforms, if the founders had clearly stated: "No Nazis need apply." But it's too late for that.
Yes, that would have been the best thing. Instead, they nurtured and promoted them.
That’s the reason for the letter.
Its never too late to start doing the right thing.
This reminds me of a scene in 12 Angry Men. One of the jury members is prejudice against the boy on trial. As he speaks, each of the other members walk away and turn their backs on him. When the man notices that no one is listening, he grows quiet. It’s sad how easily hatred can poison a platform. What fuels it is the attention it gets.
I can understand why many writers want to leave but at the same time, as you said, hatred is everywhere. All we can really do is try to get rid of it in whatever platform it’s present. Maybe leaving it will draw attention. But sometimes fighting hatred means having to stay on the platform, sadly. It’s a tricky situation.
I'm not going anywhere; I like this bar, and have zero interest in seeing it taken over. Besides, as you've correctly noted, there's no real alternatives.
While this is shocking, it unfortunately doesn't surprise me. They had paid pro packages (i.e. a fortune) to famously transphobic writers to keep blogging here. So this latest news is completely expected, sad to say. But Substack also has a low bar to entry, and many find the Substack notes very helpful to connect with their followers and potential new readers. LOL I post regularly on Twitter X (now with a blue checkmark so I can write longform), and even buy a lot from Amazon. I don't have any room to judge. 😂
Substack might have some cool reasons for existing (and I'm not being facetious, just real) but they're motivated by profit and a long life so are inclined to accept all-comers when they start. If these guys are organized, have paid subscribers and are driving much needed cash to Substack's bottom line - the guys at The Top may have some handwringing ahead of them as they decide what they want to do with the alt-right members.
I'd like to go back in time and stifle with an old sock the person who said - Money talks, Nobody walks - except it was so damn prophetic. It drives this platform and every other one so finding a place that doesn't have people who hate is a very tall order. Best to do our best to put guardrails wherever we can on something that works rather than looking for an Angel who is willing to donate $200,000,000 to start an Ideal platform. Let's improve it while we can
I don’t intend to leave and give the bastards what they want. Too, we may very well have a Nazi in the White House-- once again-- so should those of us who oppose him flee our homeland? I don’t have the resources for that, just as I don’t have a place to go to from here. I’m weary of jumping from platform to platform. I’m finding they all suck in one way or another. Oh, my father was a Jew. He would have told me to stand my ground. But, the fact that there has been no response from Substack is unconscionable.
No one much cares if I leave Substack -- I'm not even charging anyone for anything -- but I just brought over a friend who was looking for somewhere new after TinyLetter closes down. I'd heard about Substack's Nazi problem but was hoping it would get taken care of. Instead we get this...mere days after I got my friend to set up shop here! So the question of where to go if Substack becomes untenable isn't academic. Sending out newsletters isn't the problem -- I can do that, the tech side is easy -- but being discovered by new people, growing the audience, that's the hard part. And I don't know where anyone can do that.
Agreed. I've had the same thoughts myself. If you find answers, I hope you write about it. We'd all love to have more options than to shrug and try not to think about it.
I subscribe to as many Substack writers as I can afford, in both money and time to read. Yes, I'm surprised that there are Nazi writers here, but the fact that they are hiding in the dark bothers me much less than the masses of young people at universities that used to be edifices of higher learning screaming that Hamas had the right to exterminate more Jews proportionately than the US lost in 9/11. The screaming is bad enough, but Jewish students are being threatened and assaulted. The horrors of the Holocaust led to a war that my ancestors participated in to ensure it would never happen again. Yet it has, right here on our home turf. I look at the hate speech spewers on Substack in much the same way as cockroaches and ants in the house. You don't want them there, but no matter how hard you try, they come creeping back, always hiding in the cracks and crevices. I don't view them nearly as dangerous as a howling pack of young wolves in broad daylight, screaming "From the river to the sea..." I'm not Jewish, but on October 7 I became a Jew in spirit, if only to affirm my humanity. I have a friend in Israel who has children and grandchildren in Canada. She worries about them constantly and wishes they were back in Israel, where she feels they would be safer.
I was just thinking of leaving Medium and moving to Substack, but this is kind of a deal breaker for me. Are the powers-that-be at Substack even thinking about beefing up their hate policy?
Linda says they are.
I am one of the signatories to the letter. I am strongly considering leaving. I can post my content on my own website, on Squarespace. Squarespace, like WordPress, is a tool. You buy it, you use it. Could hate groups use it? Sure. But it's a website building tool, not a moderated platfrom. Substack claims that they don't allow speech or fundraising that promotes violence against protected classes. But they have not even dignified the 200+ Substackers who signed onto the letter with a response to their question of how this aligns with their policy. None. What kind of care does that show this community? I fear that the reason they don't moderate more is simple. Money. See Dave Karpf's thoughts on it here: https://davekarpf.substack.com/p/on-substack-nazis-laissez-faire-tech
The most important piece you've ever written Linda.
Thank you for taking a stand.
For everyone...
SOME BACKGROUND ON HOW THE WORLD OF NAZIS CAME TO RE-HAUNT US.
HOW EXTREMISTS WEAPONIZE IRONY TO SPREAD HATE:
https://www.npr.org/2021/04/26/990274685/how-extremists-weaponize-irony-to-spread-hate
DARK MONEY AND NAZIS
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/17/dark-money-review-nazi-oil-the-koch-brothers-and-a-rightwing-revolution
YANKEES - YOUR TAXES AT WORK
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-supremacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report?fbclid=IwAR2TQKiCNmijySotShjtskyU8Yaw-9F3astYK7kNKKGSU5AjQFyDknGN4n0
GLOBAL NAZIS
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/global-right-germany/
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/far-right-and-coronavirus-extreme-voices-amplified-global-crisis
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nationalities-papers/article/victims-of-the-pandemic-european-farright-parties-and-covid19/638E1BEA8CF82CA068DBC46149BE9F42
TIPS ON HOW TO WRITE/FIGHT NAZIS:
https://thebattleground.eu/2020/09/11/40-ways-to-fight-fascists/
https://datasociety.net/library/oxygen-of-amplification/
NAZIS SUCCESSFULLY BEATEN:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/10/golden-dawn-greece-far-right/616642/
AND AS LONG AS TURKIYE, INDIA, HUNGARY, ARGENTINA ETC. ARE RULED BY FAR-RIGHT DICTATORS, AND TRUMP IS NOT IN JAIL, THIS IS CERTAINLY NO TIME TO RELAX...
FINAL WORDS
Rupert Murdoch and his media empire have done the most damage by not only allowing but also accelerating the rise of Nazism across the globe.
Zuckerberg's Facebook and Musk's X and most social media have been willing handmaidens as well.
To crush them all, the best plan is to FOLLOW THE MONEY.
Find the money and then HIT THE MONEY.
They won't like that.
AND THE ABSOLUTE LAST WORDS GO TO KARL POPPER, THE TWENTIETH CENTURY AUSTRIAN-BRITISH PHILOSOPHER...
"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
***
You should consider the fact that we live in a capitalistic society.So companies act according to what is profitable and not what is ''morally'' correct.If Substack feels it earns more money if nazi groups remain,they will simply keep them.
I do not want to sound cynical but that is the American society.
Our memberships, our fees, our presence on these platforms, all three are our votes. But like you say, Linda, we use that vote to exit and where do we go? The sad,sad truth is that hate sells. What a statement about a large chunk of humanity. Yet because the vast majority of corporations care ONLY about profit, the machine spews forward.
Maybe we just keep on migrating from site to site, knowing the hate will be there too. But at least the one in the current line of fire suffers and maybe a message sinks in and actions are taken to clean out the hate and conspiracy theories ? ( Ha, Pollyanna here again!) I’m recalling Neil Young and those he influenced to leave Spotify as an effort to cause Spotify to fire Joe Rogan...that certainly didn’t work. Yep, because: money.
If goodness and hope shrink into the background and leave a hole, evil will certainly fill it. We make a difference through our presence and unfailing commitment to equality, justice, and our shared respect for one another and the world in which we live.